“They have made an outstanding effort to document war crimes, human rights violations and the abuse of power” wrote the Nobel Committee in the justification for awarding the Nobel Peace Prize to the Ukrainian Center for Civil Liberties (together with Ales Bialiatski and the Memorial). Established in 2007, the organization promotes democratic values. For over fifteen years, it has been documenting human rights violations and war crimes committed in Russian-occupied Crimea and Donbas, and for over a year, in almost all of Ukraine. The Center for Civil Liberties also played an important role during the Euromaidan, during which it ran the Euromaidan SOS helpline for the victims of Viktor Yanukovych’s regime. The CCL is now one of the most active advocates of judging Vladimir Putin and Russian soldiers for crimes against humanity. CCL cooperates with the International Criminal Court.
Oleksandra Romantsova is Executive director of the Center for Civil Liberties. She became professionally involved as a human rights defender at the Center for Civil Liberties in 2014, where she has since been responsible for the international advocacy of the results of the centers’ activity. From February 24, 2022, she also coordinates the direction of documentation of war crimes and advocacy of documentation results as part of the global initiative „Tribunal for Putin”. Participates in field missions in the Kyiv region.
It’s been a year of full-scale war in Ukraine…
It’s very important that you say “full-scale”. For us, in Ukraine, war didn’t start in February 2022. It started in 2014. If the world had reacted properly, the current invasion wouldn’t have happened.
It’s important to underline that this war did not fall from the sky… Coming back to the year of full-scale invasion. Last year was the year of the biggest tragedy since World War II in Europe. On the other hand, it was a year of incredibly hard work that you and the Center for Civil Liberties have made – the work that was awarded by the Nobel Peace Prize.
Before February 24th we used to work on documenting war crimes happening previously in Ukraine. As I said, we were aware of the possibility of the full scale war outbreak. It was the logical result of what Putin was doing inside Russia for decades. Shrinking human rights, trying to destroy nongovernmental organizations, limiting independent journalism – autocracy always is the start of war. Autocrats need to keep their power. When 24th February happened, we were perhaps not confused, but we were overwhelmed by the number of factors. In February, March and even April we didn’t exactly know what resources we had for work.
Most of the Center for Civil Liberties’s staff, as I know, were still in Kyiv then.
Exactly, and at that time Russian forces were trying to surround Kyiv. City fought. Artillery was shooting near our houses. We decided to spread our crew. Six of us stayed in Kyiv. Others went to the west part of Ukraine and started working remotely. After April Russian forces were kicked out from the north part of Ukraine and Kyiv became safer – except from rocket shelling. We brought back part of our staff. The rest stayed away in case something happened to us. We needed backup, kind of the roots of our organization.
After April you stabilized your work?
We were working continuously, but after April we finally got to know what sort of work we should do. The first months were a reaction to what happened around us. Next ones were understanding that we need to have a strategy which includes all of these new circumstances.
What was this strategy?
Firstly, we started to speak out loud about what is happening in Ukraine. We talked to lots of international journalists. We got the space to speak about what kind of help we need. Earlier we were known among human right defenders around the globe. At that point we had an impact on people out of this society.
Secondly, we reactivate our connections with volunteers. Many new people joined us, helped with translating messages and collecting pieces of evidence from open sources. I believe we managed this period quite well as for such an unstable environment.
Before 24th February Ukrainian human right defenders documented 10 000 cases of war crimes – it was in the period of eight years. In 2022 we documented about 33 000 cases.
More than three times more cases!
Huge difference. We needed to change our ways of investigation, judgment and enforcing justice for all the people who suffered from the hands of the Russians.
Then, in October, it was announced that the Center for Civil Liberties was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. How did this distinction affect your work?
You need to know that Ukraine doesn’t have any experience with the Nobel Prize. Some of the recipients had Ukrainian roots but they worked outside of Ukraine. Nobody knew how to deal with such a situation. There aren’t any instructions and procedures about that… Even our state was a bit confused with that. Now both the government and society are understanding more and more that the Nobel Prize is a possibility to speak to the world. In Ukraine people knew us quite well because of the Euromaidan hotline – which was one of our initiatives during protests. Nobel helped us to connect with regions where people haven’t ever heard about Ukraine. We got to cooperate with organizations in Africa, Latin America and Asia. We calculated that we made nearly 1000 different meetings with international politicians, organizations and human rights defenders during the past year.
So you treat Nobel as a great chance of representing the Ukrainian raison d’état?
It gave us access to people who exactly can help us with creating the system of justice and prevention of next stages of war. Before Ukraine there was Georgia, Syria, Chechnya or Moldova. All those actions were unrelated to any reaction. Governments were saying „we are concerned about that” but nobody answered actively. Being concerned started to be kind of an inside joke among Ukrainian people. Now we have a chance to stop this madness. We need to judge what Putin is (and was) doing. Nobel surely can help us with that.
Was the Prize a symbol of international solidarity and support for Ukraine?
It’s not that easy. We need to remember that we were nominated on the 31st of January. War might have influenced who was chosen but it had no effect on who was nominated. Human rights are important regardless of war. Human rights are not tradition, mythology or legend. It is an actual system of preventing war. If you – as a government – respect human rights, if you work for equality, if you make people feel the value of their dignity, you will live in a safe country. The Nobel Committee chose us, Memorial and Aleś Bialacki to put light on our region. And they succeeded in that matter.
So are the symbols of support really important for Ukraine?
We recently had an example of that during the visit of president Joe Biden in Kyiv. It was a marvelous moment for Ukrainians but right after emotions came questions – what did he bring. All the words are extremely vital but we can’t defend ourselves with words. We are at the point in our history when law, speeches and values are unable to stop Russian soldiers. You need guns and artillery to defend yourself. In our army ordinary people serve. There are ballet dancers, IT specialists, even teachers… There are even situations when teachers connect with their students from fortifications for online lessons. Those people weren’t born to fight. Every day from 50 to 100 of them die fighting against Russia. Talking about arms, we talk about them.
Can we say that more than symbols Ukraine needs guns?
Not guns – the system of protection. If the world could magically turn off the Russian possibility of aggression, it would be okay. It is not about weapons. We would accept anything that will let us live in peace.
Valid question is also justice. In what way we can answer to war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide? We can’t pass it. We, as the human race, cannot say „well, that happens”. People who made those decisions exist. People who did it by their own hands exist. If these people will have the possibility to use all their rights; if they will continue to receive benefits from international businesses; if they will be able to use all the money and live in luxury, it will be humanity’s greatest failure.
One of the Center for Civil Liberties’s most important tasks is collecting records of the crimes against humanity. What does this process look like?
We trained and established a team of professionals in charge of interviewing people, gathering information from witnesses, and collecting visual data. In cases when something significant happens, the team would directly go to that specific location. The documentation of a war crime is a very detailed process, it also includes searching for connections between cases, perpetrator tracking, and finding out the series of events that took place allows to re-establish the whole picture of the event and understanding of who the responsible individual for these atrocities is.
We are working with open sources. We get our information mostly from media information, open groups on social media and ordinary people’s reports. We frequently go to liberated territories and speak with people there. We look for objects like schools, churches, hospitals and civil houses that were destroyed. We make photos and videos of that and try to find eyewitnesses.
Also, our documentation work helps to highlight issues that need to be addressed immediately to prevent further mass human rights violations. Such as the forced relocation of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian citizens (including children) to the territory of the Russian Federation
What conditions must the documentation meet?
We need to be completely sure that the crime happened. We need to be sure also that it didn’t happen before the war. We try to get information about when and under what circumstances it took place. And, what’s most important, not every war damage is a result of war crime.
So what is a war crime?
It is an act of aggression made with conscious motivation and purpose. For example, we had a situation when a Ukrainian tank was fighting with Russian tanks in the crossroads. While shooting between themselves, they destroyed some houses. There were no people. They didn’t do that on purpose. They didn’t go there in order to destroy houses. It was a part of a battle – successful for Ukraine by the way. Obviously it happened and owners of those houses need to get reparations, but it is not a war crime.
Who will take responsibility for war crimes?
If some soldiers killed and tortured civilians, we need to consider whether it was ordered by the officer. In that case justice should be brought for both soldiers and officers. Also, when an officer doesn’t stop a soldier, he is an accomplice of the crime. All of this is a matter of investigation.
In Ukraine there are 32 organizations that record war crimes. We all put our data in one huge database. It gives us an opportunity to see patterns. For example we find out that Russians frequently shoot hospitals, which are protected by international law. By that we know that it is a strategy, not an isolated incident.
The aim of the investigation is to put people responsible for crimes before the court. How is it really possible that Russians will take responsibility for their crimes?
At this point we can cooperate with the International Criminal Court and the General Prosecutor Office. They can open the case (over the biggest acts of violence – I believe it won’t be more than 20 such trials) and investigate all the information about who exactly did that, who ordered that and who decided about that on the strategic, governmental level. Then they can judge war criminals and try to bring them before the court. Now, in absentia, we can judge people who were not arrested and are living freely in Russia. We also need something like the Court of Crime of Aggression. It would cover crimes of management of this war and accuse the president, people around him, parliament, ministers and generals. All the other, thousands, cases will be judged on the national level.
Would it be possible to put Putin himself before the court?
In absentia it’s totally possible. To arrest him is a matter of question. It would be possible only if he would totally lose in Russia. But at the moment of his failure surely a lot of assassins will try to kill him. It would be nearly impossible to bring him to the tribunal alive. I think he knows that and that’s why right now he is hiding from people. Realistically, he won’t end up in prison. But we can accuse him distantly and give him the understanding that he is indeed a war criminal. For the rest of his life he will not be able to take a step not minding restrictions over him.